OpenAustralia.org

Begin forwarded message:

From: Katherine Szuminska <kat[at]openaustralia.org>
Date: 4 May 2009 23:50:02 GMT+10:00
Subject: QLD hansard copyright request

Just filled in the form with text as per VIC request. Here's a copy and paste of it from this page:

http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/view/home/contactUs.asp?submitFeedback=1

Contact Us
Home Print Increase font sizeDecrease font size

You can contact us at :

Parliament House
Cnr of George and Alice Streets
Brisbane, QLD, 4000

Phone : 3406 7111

OR by filling in the below form :

Please note that any comments/feedback received regarding matters of Government Policy will not be responded to by the Parliament.

If you wish to comment on government policy, you should forward your comments directly to either the relevant Minister or Government Department/Agency, individual Members of Parliament or to the Political Parties.

Contact details for Government Departments/Agencies are available at www.qld.gov.au/government/departments/ and Individual Members and Government Ministers at www.parliament.qld.gov.au/members.

For more information on the Queensland Parliament and its role, please refer to our frequently asked questions page at www.parliament.qld.gov.au/view/education/faq.asp and the relevant fact sheets at www.parliament.qld.gov.au/view/education/factSheets.asp.

Thank you, your feedback has been submitted.

Some how I missed this correspondence. I rang Lucinda today, who confirmed she'd emailed this response. I will be writing back to explain why we want to do what we do, and why linking back to them wont work.

On 8 May 2009, at 11:17, Lucinda Osmond wrote:

Good morning

Thank you for your attached email inquiry. We would have two concerns with Queensland Hansard being republished as suggested in your email. The first is that while our official publication ofHansard is absolutely privileged against any liability, any subsequent republication of a proceedings in Parliament does not necessarily enjoy the same level of protection and liability can arise from the distribution of extracts of Hansard if they are not published in context and accurately cited.

As a solution, however, I suggest that OpenAustralia provide readers with a link to proceedings on our parliament's website.

Regards

Lucinda Osmond
Chief Reporter
______________________________________
QUEENSLAND PARLIAMENTARY SERVICE
Parliament House
Cnr George and Alice Streets Brisbane Qld 4000
Ph: 07 3406 7314
Mob: 0414616582
Fax: 07 3210 0182
lucinda.osmond [at] parliament.qld.gov.au

received this email from Lucinda and now writing to the Clerk of Parliament (http://www.qgd.qld.gov.au/nma004.html)

Thank you for your email. The Clerk has requested that you formally write to him requesting permission to republish the Record of Proceedings.

The contact details are as follows:

Mr Neil Laurie
Clerk of Parliament
Parliament House
Cnr of George and Alice Streets
Brisbane, Q, 4000

Regards

Lucinda Osmond
Chief Reporter
______________________________________
QUEENSLAND PARLIAMENTARY SERVICE
Parliament House
Cnr George and Alice Streets Brisbane Qld 4000
Ph: 07 3406 7314
Mob: 0414616582
Fax: 07 3210 0182
lucinda.osmond [at] parliament.qld.gov.au

From: Katherine Szuminska [mailto:kat [at] openaustralia.org]
Sent: Monday, 20 July 2009 2:46 PM
To: Lucinda Osmond
Subject: request to republish QLD hansard

Dear Lucinda,

Unfortunately we're not able to run the website by following links back to your website, and so I am keen to move forward on obtaining permission to republish the QLD hansards.

We are able to cite the source of speeches, providing a link back to the original

Please see this in our republishing of the Senate Hansard http://www.openaustralia.org/senate/?id=2009-06-25.12.2
As you see in this example, the speech is reproduced has a clear link back to the orginal source.

Additionally with the Register of Members' Interests we were asked to provide additional information on our site, which we were also happy to do, please see http://www.openaustralia.org/help/ for the original source of the text below.

Please note that for the Register of Interests we have been asked to make the following caveats clear:

• OpenAustralia is not an officially supported or maintained by parliament
• At any given time it is possible that information available about a Member or Senator's interests through the site may not be up to date as they may have notified alterations
• Fraudulent use or manipulation of the information could be raised as a matter of contempt.

If something like this would be useful in moving our request forward, please let us know. We believe the republishing request to be a reasonable one, and we would like the opportunity to appeal this decision, taking into account the above information.

Please don't hesitate to contact me if there are any futher questions or problems, either by email or on my mobile: 0424 XXX XXX.

Best Regards, Kat

just sent. to Neil Laurie, Clerk of Parliament (http://www.qgd.qld.gov.au/nma004.html)

Dear Mr Laurie,

Further to our conversation today, I am writing on behalf of http://www.openaustralia.org to formally request permission to republish the Queensland State Parliamentary Hansards. I hope that the following information suffices to enable you to consider this request.

OpenAustralia is a not for profit volunteer run service bringing transparency to Australia's democratic processes and public institutions. We have been republishing the Federal Hansards from both houses since June 2008. The letter can be seen here:
We are openly supported in this endeavour by a range of Government and non Government people, departments, agencies and now even a taskforce. Currently we republish the Hansard online from the House of Representatives and the Senate going back to beginning of 2006.

http://www.openaustralia.org is a freely accessible website. We take the Federal Hansard and make it more accessible for all. The simple to use website allows you to sign up for email alerts or RSS by keyword, handy if you're following an issue through parliament. You can also elect to be emailed when ever your Representative speaks. The site is fully indexible by search engines which means that text from speeches can easily be found through an external internet search engine such as google.

We're aiming to extend the service to all States and Territories in Australia.

OpenAustralia was founded by me and Matthew Landauer. Our own work on OpenAustralia began in our spare time, and has to date has been entirely voluntary. We are fortunate to have the support of a growing number of volunteer developers in 4 states/territories, and free ISP hosting. We obtained official notification of permission from Australian Parliament House to republish the Hansard before launching the public beta version of http://www.OpenAustralia.org. We're a newly incorporated a not for profit company & there's more information about that at http://blog.openaustralia.org

Our website is based on the open-source software made available by http://www.theyworkforyou.com and we are proud to continue in the open-source tradition, to actively participate in making these software tools to anyone who sees fit to put them to use.

We provide a has a clear link back to the orginal source. Please see an example of this in our republishing of the Senate Hansard http://www.openaustralia.org/senate/?id=2009-06-25.12.2

Additionally with the Register of Members' Interests we were asked to provide additional information and citation on our site, which we would also happy to do for QLD State Parliament Hansard republishing if that would be useful for you. Please see http://www.openaustralia.org/help/ for the original source of the text quoted below.

Please note that for the Register of Interests we have been asked to make the following caveats clear:

• OpenAustralia is not an officially supported or maintained by parliament
• At any given time it is possible that information available about a Member or Senator's interests through the site may not be up to date as they may have notified alterations
• Fraudulent use or manipulation of the information could be raised as a matter of contempt.

For a little more background information and context to our work, I'm including a number of links to media appearances conferences and speaking engagements.

Some Media Coverage of OpenAustralia and its Volunteers' Contributions to Civic Engagement in Australia
James Massola Canberra Times 13/07/2009
http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/national/national/general/govt-opens-up-to-participatory-ict/1565831.aspx?storypage=0
including a nice mention from the taskforce chair Nicholas Gruen on page 3 - http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/national/national/general/govt-opens-up-to-participatory-ict/1565831.aspx?storypage=3

Nicholas Evershed SMH 18/06/2009
http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/forum-to-explore-how-web-tools-can-bolster-democracy-20090618-cke1.html

Ben Grubb news.com.au 17/06/2009
http://www.news.com.au/technology/story/0,28348,25649658-5014239,00.html

Stilgherrian Crikey.com 23/06/2009
http://www.crikey.com.au/2009/06/23/government-20-taskforce-first-a-logo-design-contest/

Matthew Moore SMH 19/12/2008
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/interests-of-mps-to-go-online--its-about-time/2008/12/19/1229189883754.html

Maxine Web Directions South 28/08/2008
http://www.webdirections.org/blog/openaustralia-interview-with-matthew-landauer/

Some Recent Speaking Engagements by Matthew Landauer
Kate Lundy's Public Sphere 2
presentation (its about the 14th one in) http://www.katelundy.com.au/2009/05/29/public-sphere-2-open-government-policy-and-practice/
and the slides from that - http://www.slideshare.net/greebo/public-sphere-gov-20-matthew-landauer

Hackfest, Google Open Source Blog & Google Tech Talk
http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2009/06/australia-goes-open.html

Slides from OpenSource Developers Conference
http://www.slideshare.net/mlandauer/openaustralia-making-politics-work-better-for-everyone-presentation

Please let me know if there is anything else you'd like me to tell you, either by email or give me a call on my mobile: 0424 XXX XXX.

Best Regards, Kat

Please note this issue will be updated online at http://tickets.openaustralia.org/browse/OA-241

Kat Szuminska
kat [at] openaustralia.org
http://openaustralia.org/

From: Neil.Laurie [at] parliament.qld.gov.au
Subject: RE: request to republish QLD hansard
Date: 7 August 2009 17:08:52 GMT+10:00
To: kat [at] openaustralia.org
Katherine,

I have taken sometime to consider your request because of the multitude of issues and its long term policy implications.

At the outset, I note that the "Queensland State Parliamentary Hansards" is actually the Record of Proceedings. Unlike other Parliament's Hansards, it is a record, not only of what is said, but a procedural record of what has been done.

Initially, I was inclined to support your request because:

*
I am an ardent supporter of the use of the Internet as a communication medium as exampled by the Queensland Parliament's lead in areas such as Epetitions and the Tabled Papers database (a single database containing all documetns tabled in the Parliament and linked to the Record of Proceeding).
*
I am inclined to support anything that would make the record of Proceeding accessible and searchable.

However, I have decided to decline to give permission.

My reasons include, but are not limited to the following:

*
I am concerned about the demands that may ultimately be placed upon the Queensland Parliamentary Service by OpenAustralia in terms of supply of information. I am especially concerned that once OpenAustralia is supplied the record for the purposes of republication, it would become a "special stakeholder" over and above our other stakeholders, to the extent that we would have to take into account OpenAustralia's needs when any adjustments have to be made to our own systems. System redesign is complicated enough, without the added complication of such a "special stakeholder".
*
Despite OpenAustralia stating that it is a "not for profit volunteer run service", I am not able to be assured from the information provided that there is no-one with some commercial interest (even indirect) or some other private interest in the venture. The information and "special stakeholder" status mentioned above could be a valuable commodity, not currently provided to others.

• A key issue is whether OpenAustralia should given the status and protection of an "authorised publisher" as an engaged entity for the publication of an authorised parliamentary record as per section 51(4)(g) of the Parliament of Queensland Act 2001 ( http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/P/ParliaQA01.pdf ). I do not believe it would be appropriate for me to give this authority as this sort of arrangement was not contemplated by the Act.
• Therefore, if permission was granted, it would be on the basis that OpenAustralia is not an authorised publisher under the Act and that OpenAustralia accepts all risks of any legal liability arising from the further publication of the parliamentary record - which would not be absolutely protected by parliamentary privilege.
• Most significantly, I am concerned about an alternative "non-official" site upon which lays the Queensland Parliaments official Record of Proceedings but which no-one in authority within the Parliamentary Service has control.
• I applaud the use of open-source software used by OpenAustralia

Neil Laurie
The Clerk of the Parliament

______________________________________
QUEENSLAND PARLIAMENTARY SERVICE
[...snip...]

hmm. cut and paste error on my part: here's the full email back from Neil Laurie. NOTE the bit at the end that was missing before.

On 7 Aug 2009, at 17:08, Neil Laurie wrote:

Katherine,

I have taken sometime to consider your request because of the multitude of issues and its long term policy implications.

At the outset, I note that the "Queensland State Parliamentary Hansards" is actually the Record of Proceedings. Unlike other Parliament's Hansards, it is a record, not only of what is said, but a procedural record of what has been done. It is, in fact, an amalgamation of the previous Hansard and the Votes and Proceedings.

Initially, I was inclined to support your request because:

I am an ardent supporter of the use of the Internet as a communication medium as exampled by the Queensland Parliament's lead in areas such as Epetitions and the Tabled Papers database (a single database containing all documents tabled in the Parliament and linked to the Record of Proceeding).
I am inclined to support anything that would make the Record of Proceedings more accessible, searchable and user friendly.
However, I have decided to decline to give permission or authority to republish, beyond inviting OpenAustralia to make links to the record of Proceedings for the Queensland Parliament's website.

My reasons include, but are not limited to the following:

I am concerned about the demands that may ultimately be placed upon the Queensland Parliamentary Service by OpenAustralia in terms of supply of information. I am especially concerned that once OpenAustralia is supplied the record for the purposes of republication, it would become a "special stakeholder" over and above our other stakeholders, to the extent that we would have to take into account OpenAustralia's needs when any adjustments have to be made to our own systems. System redesign is complicated enough, without the added complication of such a "special stakeholder".
Despite OpenAustralia stating that it is a "not for profit volunteer run service", I am not able to be assured from the information provided (and on the website) that there is no-one with some commercial interest (even an indirect interest) or some other private interest in the venture. The information and "special stakeholder" status mentioned above could be a valuable commodity, not currently provided to others.
A key issue is whether OpenAustralia should given the status and protection of an "authorised publisher" as an engaged entity for the publication of an authorised parliamentary record as per section 51(4)(g) of the Parliament of Queensland Act 2001 ( http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/P/ParliaQA01.pdf ). I do not believe it would be appropriate for me to give this authority as this sort of arrangement was not contemplated by the Act.
Therefore, if permission was granted, it would be on the basis that OpenAustralia is not an authorised publisher under the Act and that OpenAustralia accepts all risks of any legal liability arising from the further publication of the parliamentary record - which would not be absolutely protected by parliamentary privilege. I am concerned about third party use of such republication.
Most significantly, I am concerned about an alternative "non-official" site upon which lays the Queensland Parliament's official Record of Proceedings but which no-one in authority within the Parliamentary Service has control. How could I be assured that no alterations were made to the publication?
I applaud the use of open-source software used by OpenAustralia, but would prefer to use such software and the features it offers, from the official site. This is a matter that will investigated this financial year.
Finally, and not a matter that I took in to account in my decision making process, I must say that I was less than impressed by an article referred to in your email:

http://www.news.com.au/technology/story/0,28348,25649658-5014239,00.html

I found the comments made in this article to be very denigrating of the Commonwealth Parliament's service, and extremely self-serving to OpenAustralia. I have absolutely no background to this matter, but thought it an odd article for you to send in this type of email as it appears, on its face, to be motivated by increasing the reputation (and use) of OpenAustralia at the expense of the reputation of the agency that is supplying it information.

Regards

Neil Laurie
The Clerk of the Parliament

further email sent through to Neil Laurie in response to his concerns, and not reproduced here by request. Talk to me if you'd like any further information in the meantime.

I just noticed @qld_oic RT us (https://twitter.com/#!/OpenAustralia/statuses/35119682641989632) and so I took a look at who they are.

http://www.oic.qld.gov.au/ "Office of the Information Commissioner Queensland - Promoting Open Government"

Might be worth contacting?

They might be worth contacting but remember that other departments have no authority over parliament. It is, for good reason, independent and so any "open government" initiatives are not in any way applicable.

Jolly good point - I'd never considered that.